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Assisted Dying - The Dundee Debate

Updated: Jan 21


On Thursday 5th December 2024 a discussion on assisted dying was held in the University of Dundee. The event was promoted by Dundee Pensioners’ Forum, and facilitated by Professor Anne Kerr (pictured) of the University of Glasgow. Professor Kerr is also Chair of the Nuffield Bio Ethics Committee’s Citizens’ Jury in England


Report on the discussion


Concerned about the many complex issues that are foreseen around the proposals on Assisted Dying legislation being presented to both the Westminster and Holyrood parliaments, Dundee Pensioners’ Forum resolved to promote a city wide discussion. Supported by the School of Business at Dundee University, that discussion took place on 5th December.


Invitations to participate brought a wide range of interested parties to the event, including medical practitioners, persons from groups representing people with disabilities, people who seek to promote end of life discussion and individuals with experience of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ end of life experiences. The event began with a presentation from Prof. Anne Kerr of the University of Glasgow. Anne Kerr is the Professor of Science and Technology Studies in Glasgow and was the chair of the recent Nuffield Bio Ethics Committee Citizen’s Jury in England which had just produced their report on Assisted Dying.


Following her presentation there followed over an hour’s discussion in which the invited guests gently and respectfully shared their hopes and fears about the legislation currently beginning its journey at Westminster. What follows below is an attempt to collate the views presented by both Prof. Kerr and the subsequent open discussion. These views will be sent shortly to every MSP before they debate a largely similar proposal which the Scottish Parliament plan to debate in the spring of 2025. Hopefully these views will inform some of that debate.


Around 35-40 people, representing the broad range of opinions mentioned above from across the City, responded to the invitation from Dundee Pensioners’ Forum to take part in a discussion about the proposed legislation expected to come before the Scottish Parliament.


The invitation was not to a for/against debate but to a discussion of hopes and fears about what legislation might bring. This was well respected.


Although there are significant differences in the Scottish proposal, the basic premise of whether to seek legislation to allow some form of assisted dying is much the same. Prof. Kerr said that she doubted very much if opinions in Scotland would vary greatly from those in England.


‘Assisted dying’ she said is an umbrella term for the involvement of healthcare professionals in the provision of legal drugs intended to end a patient’s life at their voluntary request subject to eligibility criteria and safeguards.


Among the main points of the English Citizen’s Jury report was the finding that some 65-70% to end a patient’s life at their voluntary request, were in favour, but that support fell away when asked about the extension of the the 6 months terminal diagnosis to cover ‘insuferable conditions’. There was unanimity about the need to improve palliative care, a unanimity reflected in the MPs debate at Westminster.


Following on from Prof. Kerr’s introduction an open and respectful discussion took place, and once again there was a united view on the need for good palliative care as a crucial component of dignity in death. One person, with a professional medical background emphasised what she called ‘holistic palliative care’. She referenced care piloted in the 1960s which sadly she said was not feasible in busy general hospitals, so it is vital that proper holistic care (body, mind and spirit) is provided and financed in hospices and in the community.


Although in the proposed Scottish legislation there is nothing about the role of judges as in the proposals for England and Wales there were many questions about oversight. One person suggested that we need what he called ‘an era of investigation’. At the very least an essential safeguarding debate is required about the definition of a terminal illness. Is science able to predict accurately the proximity of death? We were also reminded that the issue of assisted dying is very much a concern in the Global North and hardly registers in the Global South.


The questions about judicial involvement, though not in the Scottish proposal, are clearly pertinent to wherever the final decision on each individual case is determined. What qualifications and training would the final arbitor require? Assuming the two doctors roles are similar to the Westminster proposal, what would happen if the final arbitor disagreed with the doctors? What would there be in terms of independent oversight of the process? Who would carry out evaluation and at what stage? What if the family of the dying person disagreed with his or her request?


There were questions about safeguarding; about mental capacity; about the ‘slippery slope’; about the effects on doctors, about those left behind.


This Dundee report is gleaned in part from the video recording taken on the day, the transcript of that recording and from the notes gathered on a flipchart and post-it notes. Like any collation of views it is imperfect but it does give a flavour of what was a discussion in which every voice was listened to with respect.


The one certain conclusion was that this discussion was a start on the need for informed debate nationwide because the implications and effects of the introduction of assisted dying will be far reaching. The challenge is “What happens next?”


At present it is a very polarising debate, but subject to numerous caveats, the introduction of legislation would seem to carry substantial popular support. At Westminster, after a respectful debate and a free vote, the second reading of the Private Members’ Bill had a majority of 55. Important concerns about details of safeguarding and the place and funding of palliative care were raised in the Dundee discussion.


Much of the Dundee discussion reflected the personal experiences of those present. “What about the difficulty of letting the people you love go?” asked one lady, reflecting the real dilemma, the heart versus mind turmoil that affects not just the person who is dying, but also close family and friends. Where does ‘competence’ to make a decision start andend? Much scorn was placed on the 6 month diagnosis of terminal interest in the English legislation is not included in the proposed Scottish legislation. “Might as well ask Mystic Meg in the Daily Record” was just one dismissive remark about the lack of trust in the notion that the end of life could be accurately predicted. One academic with a Muslim background pointed out that assisted dying is only important in the Global North and has no traction in the Global South.

He also pointed out that there are differing interpretations on what the Koran is saying as there are differing interpretations held by Biblical scholars.


There was total agreement in the room that much wider and informed debate on the issue is urgently needed.


One lady from the English Citizens’ Jury said she’d never been consulted about anything in her life. This need was perceived by Dundee Pensioners’ Forum and we were congratulated on promoting this debate. Organisations like ‘Friends at the End’, ‘Pushing up Daisies’ and the promotion of ‘Death Cafes’ are all working hard at promoting the importance of family discussion on what should happen in the concluding days of life.


Among the suggestions were the need for Citizens’ Juries, although Prof. Kerr pointed out that if legislators will not listen to the opinions of these juries, they are a waste of everyone’s time. Dundee Pensioners’ Forum suggest that the evidence of the English Citizens’ Jury and the Dundee Debate in December, is that if people are invited to a forum on an issue they believe to be important, what follows in a discussion conducted in a spirit of listening to a variety of voices and opinions, is a creative and informative event.


Many issues were just touched upon and need much more attention. Issues like terminal diagnoses, the effect on families, the definition of ‘intolerable suffering’ the questions around safeguarding, the provision of palliative care, the matter of independent oversight to name but a few.


So, to the question of what happens next.


First of all we will be sending this report to every MSP and every Dundee City Council elected member and we will urge each body to use our report in organising further debate before the issue comes before the Scottish Parliament.


Secondly, though Dundee Pensioners’ Forum promoted this discussion, we do not have the capacity to expand further discussion So, reluctantly, we must pass the baton to others.


Because the implementation of any legislation to introduce assisted dying will not only affect every aspect of our living and will continue to do so for generations to come, we will be sending this report to the Scottish Youth Parliament. Dundee University, who did so much of the organising for us will be happy to assist in wider discussion. Therefore we will be sending this report as widely as possible. See the list below.


Print and broadcast media, STV, BBC, Dundee Courier, COSLA, social media, STUC, Health and Social Care Partnerships, Friends at the End, Pushing up Daisies, Death Cafes, Funeral Link, Fighting for Fairness, Trades Councils, Chamber of Commerce, the Churches, Funeral Directors. This is an issue that affects every area of life and will do for generations to come.


Dundee Pensioners’ Forum. 14th January 2025


This report is hosted on the website of Democratic Left Scotland so that it can be easily accessed by organisations and individuals who are sent the link by Dundee Pensioners' Forum. DLS is pleased to be able to help amplify this contribution to discussion and debate on a crucial issue. More widely, the organisation promotes consideration and exploration of a wide range of issues of concern to everyone in Scottish society, looking at issues through a range of progressive optics.

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